Ohio Kimono USA!

Found on Ohiokimono.com

OHIO KIMONO USA!

So you guys know I love kitsuke, the art of dressing in kimono.  There aren't a ton of kimono shops in the United States, and those that I have found are expensive.  Usually I get my products from Japan off Ebay, but even those are generally in poor condition.

Then I found this shop through my instagram account, Ohio Kimono  and they have some great kimono pieces.   They apparently travel to Kyoto every year or so to purchase more pieces for the shop, so each piece is hand picked.

Not only that, but they are organized and labeled correctly. Strange as it may sound that is a pretty big tell between a professional supplier and someone selling knockoff Chinese polyester bathrobes.

I already have my eye on a green obiage that would be a close match for my deep orange and black furisode.  And the fantastic fukuro obi with waves that I have nothing to wear with, but I would love to own all the same. Not to mention the green kimono in the picture.  They even carry a variety of accessories, like fans, kanzashi, and tea ceremony pieces.  Plus the best part, fabric scraps!




Ok now that I am done with my review, time for the notes.

First, my house move has been delayed.  Not much I can do about it, and it is nothing I did.  Just paperwork taking too long.  Which means the shop will be closed for most of August as well.  Really, it breaks my heart, because I miss my kanzashi supplies so much.  I find that other things are fun distractions, but at my heart I am a kanzashi artisan.  I've been closed for almost a month now, and I am really having chirimen withdrawals, lol.

I am finally over my cold, and plan to go back to stitching my silk embroidery piece soon.  I do like it, but I find I don't particularly love it yet.  It requires a lot of focus, especially since I am still learning the movement.  But I find that since I cant lay in bed and be comfortable (you guys know I was sick for so long that I am accustomed to working while reclined), I just don't enjoy it as much.

I have gone back to crewel again, trying to finish the pillowcase set I started earlier in the year.  I like it more, because it is faster and I can make as many mistakes as I want.  I dont feel paranoid about how it is going to look, since I am actually going to use it.

I have also had a lot of silk dying on my mind, but only in the kanzashi aspect of things.  My friend, Elizabeth Comer of Imlothmelui on Etsy  has essentially switched from making kanzashi to hand made watercolor paints.  They look fantastic!   I really like the pearlescent ones.   She used to be the queen of dyed fabric kanzashi, and I feel that learning from her is the next big thing to my path as a kanzashi artisan.

Feeling Behind

Botan! Peony!

I have been busy lately, and feeling rather behind on a lot of my goals already. I have a list of things I have to do still, and I just started a botan piece recently.  I was going to do another multistyle, but I lost that feeling after finishing the first botan.  Red and white will be striking, and the green rounded leaves I started last night.  It's a 3 blossom maiko piecce and I was thinking about adding a bira bira but I'm not sure.


 I also managed to put the final touches on this yellow and white multi-style hana with 5 fall shidare.  It has bright green thread wrapping and a 4 inch gold hair fork. 

Multi-Style in Yellow/White

I also have the pine needle to finish, the phoenix, my 3 original hydrangea peices to fix, and a multitude of half finished hair sticks and small pieces to finish.  Then I have a photography shoot to set up, for bookmarks, finished pieces and a few other odds and ends.

Still working on kumihimo.  Looking for the right attachments for closures.

I ordered several things over the weekend for fun, like a obi-clip and a new han eri for my juban.  I also picked up some paper from The Rare Orchid during their half off flash sale!  I found the wood I need to make these fans out of washi paper, and it is kinda expensive. But I couldn't pass up 50% off!  And if I don't use it for fans I will use it for bookmarks. It's beautiful yuzen paper.

I managed to put on a kimono for the first time in months to do a demonstration for my daughter's girl scout troop.  I picked my regular komon, which is cream with a kiku/rivers/momiji pattern.  I pulled out a fukuro obi, which is probably too formal for my kimono, but my nagoya obi I had never tied before.  But the colors at least somewhat matched.  I used a cream obiage, because my only other one is bright golden yellow and would have clashed.  It was excellent practice to put it on, and only took about half an hour by myself, which means I am getting better.

I also discovered that I need a new pair of zori, since my casual ones do not fit.  At all.  And my gold-brocade ones have fallen apart, even if they are the correct size.  I have a very formal set for my furisode kimono but I am waiting to use those for a photo shoot. 

Life Updates and Upcoming Shop Vacation

It never stops. 

Major personal events have occured over the past week.

First off, my son's namesake (My husband's maternal grandfather) passed away.  It was a hard loss. 
The next day I received confirmation of my antibody test results.  After an 8 year downhill spiral I finally have evidence of a Type 1 diabetic status. Its an emotional time, since this is not something that would be celebrated normally, but after trying to push and receive this confirmation or any confirmation of what is actually going on for EIGHT years, this is a joyous sense of closure. 

Store stuff:

Despite the stressful and emotional week, I am finding comfort in the many warm condolences I have received after my son's namesake passed, and settling back into kanzashi.  I've started a new bouquet piece, just because it is something I am familiar with.  It the creamy printed chirimen I usually use for pink and pearl pieces.  This one is print with pink and wisteria purple (basically a deep lavender), and yellow-green for leaf accent. I already have 2 large blossoms (one medium kiku, and one double sakura), several small flowers with stamen centers, 2 buds, and a couple of flower/leaf combo for filler.  I want to make a piece or two more, possibly add a bira bira to this one, plus a shidare. 

I have adored making these big varied bouquets.  It is complicated enough to hold my interest and really elaborate on the diversity of my accomplishments.  I feel like it's a big step, artistically, yet it seems easier to make these than some of the other things I have tried to come up with on my own. 

I also bought and received several new Japanese craft books! I have one on chirimen work I have wanted for some time, and another on Japanese paper cords, or mizuhiki.  I am super, duper excited about the mizuhiki pattern book.  It is also often incorporated in kanzashi, as decoration or leaf patterns for bulb flowers such as narcissus, iris, and daffodil.

Right now my family has packed up and left me for a personal vacation.  I am hoping to finish several projects I have planned, but I dont know the feasibility of that many goals. Right now I am procrastinating on the shidare for the new bouquet, and it might wait until tomorrow.  Not certain yet. But I have that with my obijime still going strong, my pine needle kanzashi needs some work, and I am hoping to sew a dress for my daughter before the memorial service in the next couple of weeks.

Speaking of memorial services, I will be forced to close the shop and move it to vacation status since the memorial service will be in new mexico and I wont be able to ship anything. 

I also did some tie dying with my daughter this week to support her website, Kara and Friends.  I have only just got her shop up and running with almost no inventory. The tie dye shirts were suppose to be part of her new inventory, but they came out KINDA poor.  The colors held ok, but the centers of the swirl patterns didn't get much dye, if any.  Most of them are still pretty white on the outside.  I am going to put a logo on them and send them out to friends and family at this point.  But it was a lot of work and I dont think I even want my daughter around next batch I do.  She basically sat around while I did all the work.  Next batch will be better I hope.  But this one, not so much.

I am still going through lots of supplies these days. I am in the middle of sewing myself a dress, but I dont think i it is going to fit, just a size or two too small.  But I am ok with that, so no matter.  It was nice to use my new presser feet and work on the machine for a while.  It is also one of my goals for this weekend.  That and to try on my kimono for fitting.  And to get my house clean.  And to clean out my kid's toys.  And and and and......

It's going to be a busy week.

Kanzashi Updates and New Inventory Work Coming Soon

I am still working on this piece, but this gives you a pretty good idea of the final product.  I ended up having to scrap the shidare that the customer didn't want and replace it, so I had an extra laying around.  So I quickly made this bouquet of 2 large baby/coral pink pieces, and lots of small blossoms and smaller flower varieties.  I am still working down the thread wrapping, and still have to build my new style of shidare frame and wrap that in before mounting.  Almost finished.  :)


And after that, I am probably setting chirimen aside for a while.  I still have other projects to complete, like the obijime (which is now about 4 ft long!) and my pine needle kanzashi.

And after ALL THAT is complete, I am whipping out my SEWING MACHINE.

You heard it.  I have all kinds of plans.  Recycled kimono, obi, and some silk fabrics that I have been stashing away for this occasion.  I am looking at hair accessories, plain and with flowers, purses, bags, dresses, skirts, blouses, you name it.  I've pulled out all my sewing books.  I need to do a few alterations to some of my favorite skirts (pockets!!!) and I am going to make a few of my own clothing pieces.  But with my kiddos going to school full time I will have uninterrupted time to learn and practice.  Not to mention time to go to the gym so I don't feel like crap all the time (a must since I am Type 1 Diabetic).  But I never got into sewing because I never had a dress form to work with.  Now I have a beautiful dress form! It's even red!

I haven't been able to do much else the past few days.  Endometriosis has been kicking my butt. It's also been kicking my emotions around, so I haven't been in the mood for working. Especially after the debacle of my last custom order.  I am kinda upset I haven't sold any bookmarks or anything.  I just hope I can do something neat and different and beautiful. 

Behind the scenes and Kitsuke

So this AMAZING piece was a custom order, but she rejected the order so I'm putting it in the shop! I feel very confident that more pieces in this style will come.  That customer, however, will not. (Long story).


Kanzashi is going well, I've been taking some time off to do things like make the obijime for my furisode kimono! The obiage and juban have arrived, which means I can fit/alter the piece as needed.  The juban may need some sleeve length altering, and the date eri is stained beyond repair.  I have 2 on order, thankfully.  Along with new eri-shin and tabi and my obi (which will come in eventually).  I also got orange/gold formal shoes in a 24cm fit.  Hopefully it will fit better than the last pair I had.


Projects on the table are:

1) I have set the pine needle kanzashi aside for a moment.  Still at 65 needles, just needed a break.

2) Still waiting on the rest of my kitsuke setup to come in the mail.  YAY!

3) I have the pieces pictured here needing formal photos, don't know when I will get to that.

4) Still using kumihimo to make my obijime.  It's a violet-purple 2mm stain rattail, with gold perle thread.  I have about 1.5 feet completed, out of 5 feet total.  And yes, there is so much thread on the bobbins they are slipping and not closing completely.  Too much rattail I think.  And the gold threads is so thin compared to rattail, the bobbin just slips off due to lack of resistance. Will have pics of that later.

5) I got a dress form for my birthday! I am really going to get into making those obi belts with the japanese obi fabric I have.  I might even get to re-purpose some kimono at this point, which would be fantastic.  But that will probably wait till fall, when my kids go back to school and I can have a full day free to work.

Too many Pine Needles.....

 I'm actually up to 65, but this is the most recent picture I have.

Its been a lot of work, and still alot more to go.  Still another 25 pine needles until I start the next phase: assembly.

Its been a rough week at home, with the entire family down with a bad stomach flu.  Lasts about 3 days with the worst symptoms lasting 12 hours.  I almost wound up in the hospital......but being as severly diabetic as I am, that's not surprising.

But everyone is better now and hopefully I can get some work done.  Its been changing sheets, feeding crackers, and mopping up vomit for 3 days.

I also want to make a few more chirimen pieces for the store, but I have been deep into this project.

And I made a joke in passing i never should have, I admitted I would never be good enough to make my own obijime.  Well, guess what I am trying to do: make my own obijime (the cord that holds the obi in place.  I am cheapening the materials, which i dont normally do, but I am running low on funds with this new kimono.  So satin rattail in plum purple and gold perle metallic thread.  I know for a 5 ft obijime, I will probably need about 20 yards.  So i have to purchase in bulk. And I will need two skeins of the perle thread. I have a pattern I am practicing now, with the simliar materials in different colors (peacock blue and gold).  Hopefully it will look good and I will have enough length to hide the ends. Or I am going to have to make an obidome (a obi broach) which would not be difficult, just more work I have to accomplish.

All in all things are going smoothly, and hopefully I can have this accomplished soon.

TZArtisan store updates and Project updates

Project updates!!!!!!

The 2 big kanzashi pieces I made for the TZArtisan Store are finally available! Big Blue Beauty and the Tutorial Rose are both up for grabs!!!!  Also the first set of Pumpkin Orange/Coral Pink bobby pins are up.  They will probably move pretty fast, so get them while you can!

I have finished the bobby pin sets for midnight purple/tea green, goldenrod/pumpkin orange, and coral pink/baby pink.  They are boxed up and ready to ship out to our team leader, so look for them soon! I still have the ice blue/white set and the black/china red set to complete, plus the hair sticks.

Birthday Present Furisode Kimono

As if I didn't have enough work on my plate, I have another major project underway.  I have scheduled a photo shoot for the new furisode kimono I just got for my upcoming birthday!  I am still shopping for a juban, zori, han-eri, obi, obijime and obiage. I think I know what color scheme I am going for, but the colors are exactly my style. 

Not only that, this new pine kanzashi I am making will fit it's theme perfectly.

I received some wonderful instructions from my best friend ImlothMelui on how to make the pine needle kanzashi! Its going to be an incredible amount of work.  It consists of 90 pieces of wire, 1.5 inches long each.  Then I have to cover every piece of wire in floral tape, and thread wrap in green thread.  Instead of silk, as would be traditional, I am using a rayon machine embroidery thread at 40w.  Super thin, but easy to fix mistakes and difficult to over-wrap, which adds bulk to the piece.  I am already 19 needles in.  But that means I still have a long way to go before assembly.

My photo shoot deadline is June 18.  Hopefully I can get all my pieces made and the kimono pieces assembled before that time. 

I am definitely keeping the pine needle kanzashi once it is completed.  I still regret letting go of the wisteria piece from my last photoshoot.  So photos, lots of photos, but it is NOT going in the shop, lol.

I am also working on graphics for the Etsy store front.  They have changed their layout again, and I am stuck making new graphics for everything.  I was hoping to wait until the photoshoot was done, but that is too far away. So there will be a new final layout for all the sites to match, as we did with the purple, when the photos come back.  Anything I am making currently is just a placeholder. 

On the health front, I have been diagnosed as having muscle spasms, which they have given me plenty of medication for. It helps some, but not as much as it used to.  And yesterday I completely over exerted myself, and I am paying for it today. 

Living life and Playing Catchup

Life has been interesting lately, and very busy.  But first the Professional News.  Pieces I am making for the TZARTISAN Store are coming along, but slowly.  I have made enough to take example photos of each piece.  This is not a collection of everything I have make, but examples of 2 pieces being offered.  

There are 6 color sets in all, with one hair stick and shidare and the other flat back bobby pins. I have not finished making these, and I may make more than just this.  But there will be plenty up for grabs, as i have committed to make 5 of each.  Each color set.  So lets do the math:

6 colors sets.

5 pieces each.

2 kinds per color set.

90 flowers in all.
I'm going to be doing these a while.

I am working in bursts as I work through colors.  The babypink/coral pink bobby pins are finished, and the midnight purple/tea green are half finished, as are the goldenrod/pumpkin orange.  Truthfully I have lots of each color in stock, but the fabric isn't cut.  And I have aggravated my shoulder to the point of having muscle spasms.  Cutting fabric is hard when you are under a heating pad in bed under the influence of muscle relaxers and pain medications trying to find relief.  So when I run out of a color I just move on to the next. And then I ran out of center parts, so I had to quit for a while.  But hopefully I found enough now to be able to finish the pins.  Then the hair sticks.  So much work.

Not only that, but I am going to be dishing out some new pieces and working on hairstyles for an upcoming photo shoot I am trying to work out.  I have a photographer, I just need a few more kimono pieces and a lot more kanzashi.  I ordered a hairstyle tool kit last night, and since I have so much hair it shouldn't be hard to find versatile options. 

I also hit up my good friend Elizabeth to tell me the secret behind her fabulous pine needle kanzashi she made forever ago.  Ever sicne I saw it, I knew I had to make one.  I am hoping to have that as a centerpiece in my black tomosode.  Maybe with a crane.  :)  Plus I have my semiformal kimono, the cream with print one, and the purple nagoya obi I have.  I was hoping to pick up another kimono or a few obi, but I am not sure if it will happen.  We have had a lot of personal expenses. But hopefully with my upcoming birthday I can get some funding to make it happen.

On personal notes, my heath is finally getting under control.  My son is doing great and moving into a specailzied class for autistic children. My daughter seems to be in contol of her ADHD, and my husband is stable in his job and out enjoying the Star Trek convention in Dallas this weekend.  Things are finally getting better, if i could just get this shoulder to heal.....meh, always something.

Custom order DONE! And TZARTISAN shop now open!

I've been a busy bee, as usual! To the right you can see the final display of the custom order I have been working for a month and a half!  The stems are 6 inches, to be tucked behind an obi fold around the knot or in front as a display piece.  Each bouquet has 7 blossoms, 2 leaf pieces and an alternating length bira bira. 

I never did find pins big enough  or strong enough to hold up this much weight properly, but these 4 inch'ers did the trick, I just had to add some lenght to the stem and give it a front facing bend in the stem.  All in all, they are still slightly adjustable, but look darn good.And are quite sturdy.

The hair clip was a side order to put in her wig for her cosplay. 

On top of that, I have finally gotten to work on the kanzashi I promised to donate to the TZARTISAN SHOP which is now up and running!!!!  All proceeds go to publishing the tutorial book.

Custom Order Update and New Inventory!

So as you can see, while I have been sick in bed with endometriosis for 7 days, literally, I have been quite busy.  I have 5 new double sakuras made, 2 of which obviously not pictured.  On the bottom is the lovely custom order i am still working on.  They are now measued in equal lengths (not an easy task I assure you.), and have been taped with floral tape and are ready for thread wrapping.

Except for one problem.  I hurt my wrist trying to open a stupid jar of olives.

So tonight I am hoping to accomplish that big photo shoot and get all the new inventory listed for bookmarks, the 5 double sakuras, 2 kikus and anything else I have made lately.

But with my wrist out of action, its going to mean no kumihimo, no kanzashi, and a brace for the next week.  FUN. not.

Good thing I can still type in a brace.

So look for more store updates and such over the next few weeks.  Hopefully I can still thread wrap with the brace on, I need to get this custom order out the door.  But definitely more computer udates soon.

We are also still tossing around ideas as to what to do now that the kickstarter has failed.  Looks like we might be opening a store on the TZARTISAN website, for donations and to help those who donated to the kickstarter and did not receive their rewards.  We are still going to publish this book people! Kickstarter or not!

TZARTISAN Still Going, Store Updates, Personal Stuff

Bookmarks are finished!
I have about 50 or so that have tassels and another 30 or so without. Some were just too big to leave space for a tassel.  Next up is photos and listings, which will take some time. I plan on breaking them down by tassel color and the variant patterns therein. Each bookmark has a different pattern, even the ones cut from the same paper set. It's going to mean a lot of photos, and a lot of photoshop. 

I also finished the small side piece that's part of my big custom order.  It came out awesome! And i have learned to balance the weight with these things petty well. It's the same color scheme as the two bouquet pieces, but for some reason the colors come across much more vividly than in previous attempts at photography. 

Custom Hair Clip

I still have a few pieces to put finishing touches on, like that pink and white kiku and a more casual round petal kiku in two shades of denim blue. That one is getting a clip.I need to do more clips.

And with the sale of two hair stick flowers, it's more inventory that needs replacing.  But exposure is way up, and my Etsy site is racking up the hits. So i am not complaining about replacing inventory,  lol.  And I have a ton of fabric in stock to work with. Good times!

It looks like big blue beauty is going to be sold off for funding the tutorial book project. I'll give details on that when I have them. That's all part of the TZARTISAN team development and ideas being passed around.  I would love to see her go to a good home. I was going to keep her, but she's more of a cosplay piece.  I don't generally wear stuff with a bira bira. If I had to pick one to keep, I'd remake my wisteria piece. Without a doubt. If I ever find the time.... not that THAT is a bad thing. It's been a good kind of busy on this end. 

Especially in personal areas.  I've had a lot of struggles with my insurance, but several of my doctors are going out of their way to help me.  It has been a challenge, but I am getting the services I need.  And with those doctors, we have made several breakthroughs that will get me back on track to better health.  

Ok fine.  I'll just tell you.  I'm a Type 1 diabetic, with endometriosis, and bipolar disorder. I have a slight PTSD because of my 5 year old hyperactive autistic son I have to watch constantly.  My husband and daughter are both severely ADHD.  My life revolves around medical stuff. 

So why do kanzashi?

It's my passion, it gives me something to look forward to every day.  Custom orders keep me going in life.  I don't care about the money, I never really did.  It's nice, but I always spend it on more supplies, more books, more projects.  Or sometimes I help out a friend.  Or I fund a tutorial book, lol.  But kanzashi to me, is something not medical.  It is a beautiful creation of meticulous love.  It isn't counting carbohydrates, or taking injections, or having 10 different alarms on your phone for keeping track of blood glucose testing, pill reminders, injection reminders, it goes on and on.  

Kanzashi is my escape.  Making people happy, seeing praise for my work, it's all I need to let the rest slip away into the background. 

Don;t forget the Kickstarter!!!

 

Big Blue Beauty and Kickstarter

So this is the new piece I have been trying to finish.  Life has been busy, but I am making headway in several things holding me back, like my health, money, and family (extended).

So this is a big first kind of piece for me, yet familiar.  It is the first time I have integrated both rounded petals and pointed petals in a spin ok a kiku.  Its also the first time I have put stamens in a rounded petal on a kiku, and the first time I have deviated from the traditional rhinestone center I use.

Only problem is....no gold foil wrapped wire.

Ok so the Darice company used to make a variety of foil wrapped wires in gold, opal, and silver.  I can't find them anymore, and I used the hell out of them.  I need something to cover the glue points in the leaf pieces, and I am completely out of luck.  So I am forced to experiment.  I have picked up a few gold colored ribbons, wrappings, threads, etc.  I will find something that works or this piece shall never be finished.  Espcially since the leaves are already wrapped next to the bud and ready to mount, they are just missing this gold trim to cover the glued tips.

So once I have a solution for that I can do the final wrap on this piece and put on the bira bira dangled and call it done.  I am going to use something else different as well, a new 4 inch hair fork, since this weight of this one calls for special additional support.

I might not put this one in the shop, just saying.  I like her so much I might keep her until I can re-create that wisteria piece again.  Cause she was my all time fav.  But thats after the custom order I have is finished, the cris cross sakura set.  I am still waiting on the fabric for that one.  I am pretty sure the colors will  work, but I have not even had the inventory enough to test them against each other properly.  Luckly one of the colors i need is the same color I am using for the kickstarter, and I still managed to sneak in a few new printed fabric pieces to work with.  So the next few weeks should be kanzashi fun!

Not only that, but I have reached out to/started correspondence with hanatsakuri ! Only one of the people I have watched since I started glue style kanzashi 5 years ago.  Or more, I can't really remember. But I am really starting to feel like the kickstarter tutorial book is turning us into a real community of artisans, instead of a introverted smattering of hobbyist kanzashi lovers.  And if it gained me even one friend, it was totally worth it.  I am so glad I am in this book, its the highlight of my year.  I just hope it doesnt bomb.

For anyone interested in the upcoming kickstarter you can sign up for the newsletter HERE.

New Custom Order Design!

Ok, as far as drawing goes, I am not the best artist.  But this gives you a pretty good idea of the next set I am going to make, a custom design for a Amaterasu Cosplay from Okami! But instad of being worn as a hair piece, she has elected to place a bouquet of sakura blossoms in her obi!

With the double pin design, it can be adjusted in a vareity of ways, including on either side of an obi knot, in front together, one on each side (front and back) or hair and obi. 

Each piece will consist of seven blossoms and 2 leaf pieces with a stationary bira bira.  While she has chosen a red and white theme for her cosplay, she chose a coral and peach color design with bright green for leaves and thread wrapping. Therefore it will maintain a versatility as to not be restricted to one cosplay!

Now that my tutorial project has come to a completion and I am moving on to the next phase with that, I feel confident about picking up this job.  But out of fear of over loading myself, I have temporarily shut down custom orders.  Once this job, and maybe a few other tasks, are complete, I will happily open them back up. But until i have a better idea of how my year will be , I am going to err on the side of caution. 

Besides, this is a pretty big job for me.

Now, off to order fabric! Woot!!!!

its me

Well, yes. It's me.

I don't normally come out in public like this.  I have adored my anonymity on the internet, but it is slowly fading away if I am to succeed as an artisan.

This is probably the best picture I have ever taken. LOL.

I'm done with kanzashi for the moment, I have a big kanzashi related project coming up in November I have to work on but can't really go into detail yet.

Ornaments are the main focus at the moment, trying to get some of the Christmas stock finished before I get in over my head for this project.  I also need to set up a photo shoot once again and redo all my ornaments. Lots of work. And I still have many that need trimming and many that just need photos so I can list them.  I also need a ton more ribbon and bells.  So it may be a while before I finish all of them, and probably not before the shoot.  I need a TON of ribbon.

My custom order backed out on me, so I need to reshoot that piece too.  Plus another that I missed in the previous shoot.  The red kanoko dots double sakrua still has kanzashi temple stamping....

Plus my son's birthday is this week.  It never ends.....